Greetings, O friends of the Cosmere! Welcome back to another Oathbringer reread, wherein there are not many shenanigans—unless you count paradigm shifts. If you do, this chapter is positively awash with hijinks as subconscious changes become conscious, and assumptions are challenged by reality. Okay, so it’s mostly just Kaladin chatting with the Wall Guard guys, but it’s good stuff.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. This week, there are very minor Cosmere spoilers, mostly having to do with Warbreaker. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Also, y’all are stuck with me this week. Lyndsey is still frantically trying to do All The Things (including some gnarly costuming, natch) in preparation for Anime Boston, while Aubree got an attack of food poisoning at the critical juncture. So… our usual witty badinage is absent this week, and you get a solo from yours truly.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Kholinar Wall
WHEN: 1174.2.2.2 (One week after Chapter 72; two weeks after arrival in Kholinar)
Kaladin, having joined the Wall Guard, walks the patrol beat inside the wall with Lieutenant Noro’s squad. He mostly enjoys the banter, obtaining new perspectives on how other people view the social stratification of their society, then helps guard a supply wagon until they turn it over to Velelant’s soldiers. They return to the barracks, then are sent up to the top of the Wall for duty after a short break. As Kaladin arrives, a group of Fused attack the Wall, but in a different location, apparently continuing to test the defenses. Kaladin is reminded in multiple ways that he has neither responsibility nor authority in this setting.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Telling Which Stories
Beard glanced at his arm, where he wore the traditional white armband that you’d tie a glyphward around. His was blank. “Yeah,” he said, shoving his hand in his coat pocket.
“Why not?” Kaladin said.
Beard shrugged. “Let’s just say, I know a lot about telling which stories have been made up. Nobody’s watching over us, Kal.”
I did find it amusing that Beard considers himself an expert on identifying made-up stories when he hears them. In a way, he is an expert—if only in the sense that he knows which of his stories are inventions and which are true. I suppose it works, in the “takes one to know one” category of fabrication.
Heralds
Talenel and Battar grace the chapter arch this week. Talenel is pretty obvious, as the Soldier and the Herald of War. He’s also the patron Herald of the Stonewards and is associated with the divine attributes of Dependable and Resourceful, but Soldier is enough to justify his presence. Battar is a little more difficult; she’s the Counselor, patron of the Elsecallers, and associated with the attributes Wise and Careful. It occurs to me that there’s a lot of discussion about Soulcasting in this chapter, which is something Elsecallers can do. Is that it? Or is it about Kaladin needing to exercise a lot of wisdom and caution in playing this role?
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The Banner and Spears icon indicates a Kaladin chapter.
Epigraph
I am worried about the tower’s protections failing. If we are not safe from the Unmade here, then where?
Hooooo boy. What were the tower’s protections? Are we talking about things like the temperature and pressure manipulation that makes it a comfortable place for humans to live, or are there other issues? Given the second sentence, I have to think that we’re talking about some sort of built-in magic protections, but I can’t quite think what.
The biggest question I’d like to ask, though, is whether this is when Re-Shephir showed up in the basement in the first place. Did she start to come and go down there, and was eventually trapped there by a Lightweaver before (or soon after) they abandoned the tower? I’m kind of betting on that, because it wasn’t all that much later when the Recreance happened, after which there wouldn’t have been anyone left to imprison her.
The other curiosity, assuming I’m on the right track with that one, is whether the presence of Unmade was a factor in the withdrawal of the Sibling, or vice versa. It might be that the Sibling’s retreat gave the Unmade ideas about taking up residence, or (referring back to my Unmade theory), it could be that the Sibling was pulling away to avoid being tainted or subverted by the Unmade and/or Odium. I sure would like to know…
Relationships & (B)Romances
This piece of the chapter could be broken up into different units—Squires & Sidekicks, Places & Peoples, Relationships & Romances, Tight Butts & Coconuts… However, for the sake of coherence, I’m putting it here, because I love the way Kaladin’s thinking is challenged and reshaped due to his growing friendship with Adolin.
Aside from (or along with) the momentary hilarity of this set-up, it was pure gold. In summary, the squad saw what appeared to be a “middler” who was lounging on a street corner wearing a pretty yellow suit, and they had all sorts of wisecracks and complaints about what a waste of skin someone like that was.
Kal grinned, glanced over his shoulder, looking for whoever Beard and Ved had spotted. Must be someone silly to provoke such a strong …
It was Adolin.
(I might as well note right here that Adolin was wearing a disguise, but something—either the face, the suit, the location, or the fact that he was guarded by Drehy—told Kaladin that it was indeed Adolin. It was a prearranged meeting; Adolin gave him the “all’s well” nod rather than the “return to base” headshake.)
Anyway… the other men continue to snicker or complain about people like “that roosting chicken,” and Kaladin finds himself bothered by it.
“But,” Kaladin said, “how can you say that? I mean, he’s lighteyed. Like us.” He winced. Did that sound fake? It sure is nice being lighteyed as I, of course, have light eyes—like you, my eyes are lighter than the dark eyes of darkeyes. He had to summon Syl several times a day to keep his eye color from changing.
Owwww. Similar to Shallan as Veil, Kaladin is playing a role he doesn’t know; unlike Shallan, he’s self-aware—even self-conscious—about how much he doesn’t know about his assumed role. But oh, my stars and buttons, that was awkward. Yes, dear boy, that sounded very, very fake!
Incidentally, I’m curious about his summoning Syl while being part of the Wall Guard. Does she manifest as a very, very tiny Shardblade so no one notices? A little Shard-pocket-knife? Or does he have to go to the privy so he can be alone? I’m sure she’d have a few choice comments on that situation. The logistical possibilities are… amusing.
“Like us?” Beard said. “Kal, what crevasse have you been living in? Are the middlers actually useful where you come from?”
And just like that, all of Kaladin’s assumptions about the huge differences between lighteyes and darkeyes come crashing down. He had this weird notion that all darkeyes are one group, and all lighteyes are one group, and the second group looks down on the first group en masse. Um… not so much, no. He should have known better, given the social differences between his family, at second nahn, and the rest of Hearthstone, who were fourth or fifth; with plenty of evidence that the levels mattered among darkeyes, it only makes sense that they matter among lighteyes too, but he doesn’t seem to have ever considered that. As he thinks here,
to him, lighteyes had always just been lighteyes.
Now he’s forced to realize that the “tenners”—those of the tenth dahn—have much the same attitude toward “middlers”—those of the sixth or seventh dahn—as the village children of Hearthstone once had toward him: a sort of “the useless gits think they’re so much better than us” sneer. It’s borne in on him when he suggests that they could recruit Adolin, given that he’s wearing a sword and might be able to fight; they look at him like he’s lost his marbles, and explain the realities of life.
There was an entire world represented here that Kaladin had never seen, despite it residing right next door to him.
I know, people get tired of me ranting at Kaladin for his “classist” attitudes, but honestly. He’s way too good at deciding how other people think, and being completely wrong. It’s true of a large portion of his society, of course, but we’re not in their heads, we’re in his. Which is, of course, why I love this whole scene so much: He’s coming face to face with realities he never even considered, and discovering that people don’t necessarily fit in the neat little boxes he’d stuffed them in. (What can I say—I have a deep-seated dislike of compartmentalizing people according to some trait that is completely out of their control, and then expecting them to all act and think only as members of that little group. It’s a complete denial of the worth of an individual; and besides, it’s stupid, because people are bigger than that.)
And this is the best, best, best part…:
On one hand, he wanted to tell them about Amaram and rant about the injustices done—repeatedly—to those he loved. At the same time … they were mocking Adolin Kholin, who had a shot at the title of best swordsman in all of Alethkar. Yes, his suit was a little bright—but if they would merely spend five minutes talking to him, they’d see he wasn’t so bad.
This makes me laugh so much. After all the time they spent sniping at each other with “princeling” and “bridgeboy,” Kaladin is discovering that he actually has a whole lot of respect and liking for Adolin. I could be wrong, but I don’t think his conflict is just that they’re mocking a great swordsman; I think Kaladin is upset that his friend is being mocked. The fact that he can’t tell the others the truth probably makes it worse. It’s worth pointing out, though, that due to his own prejudices it took Kaladin a lot more than five minutes… at least to acknowledge that Adolin “wasn’t so bad.”
Now all this is not to say that the tenners aren’t (at least partially) right about the middlers; it’s a fair bet that a whole lot of them are pretty useless. It’s implied that many of the middle-dahn men go into the military, where they (probably) either become decent soldiers and officers, or get themselves killed. The Guard is specifically poking fun at the ones who don’t do military service; they stay home, follow fashion trends, and have parties. Even worse,
We lost the real highlords in the riots or to the palace.
These men have had experience with good leadership. They know that the current leaders are the ones who were either too cowardly to oppose the queen’s excesses in the first place, or have only risen to their current roles as replacements for those with the courage to try. Confidence-inspiring, this is not.
Squires & Sidekicks
Clearly, we’re going to be spending a lot of time in this section this week. Most of what happens is all about Kaladin getting to know the Wall Guard guys, so… here we are.
“Stuff it, Beard,” Ved said. “You did not meet the Blackthorn.”
“I did!” the other soldier said. “He complimented me on my uniform, and gave me his own knife. For valor.”
“So THAT’S where that knife went that Dalinar was looking for in the Highstorm flashback ;)”
— Jory Phillips on the Oathbringer beta read
Sorry, I couldn’t resist sharing that one…
He had joined the Wall Guard officially upon Elhokar’s orders, and had promptly been added to Lieutenant Noro’s squad. It felt almost … cheap to be part of the group so quickly, after the effort it had been to forge Bridge Four.
This one really resonated for me. After watching Kaladin’s struggles and sacrifices to bring Bridge Four into a cohesive group, this did feel too easy. On the other hand, it makes sense. Bridge Four was a bunch of slaves who expected to die every time they left the camp, had no reason to trust one another, and only went on living because it was, maybe, marginally better than dying. The only purpose they served was to enable their highprince to get richer if his soldiers could win a battle, or forestall it by getting there first—and of course they had no hope of seeing any of those riches themselves. “Platoon Seven, Squad Two”—which definitely doesn’t have the same ring to it as Bridge Four!—is a bunch of guys who signed on to the Wall Guard. Sure, some of them don’t have stellar backgrounds, and they’re mostly the lowest dahn possible, but they’re here because they chose to be. They have training as soldiers, and they’re defending their home and/or their capital city against an army of fairy-tale horrors turned to life. They’re already a cohesive force, and they are glad to recruit an obviously capable soldier.
Well, all that, and it wouldn’t be very good writing to reproduce the Bridge Four scenario every other book.
Along with Beard, Ved, and Noro, the squad included a heavyset man named Alaward and a friendly man named Vaceslv—Alethi, but with obvious Thaylen heritage.
Great. Now we have names for the guys that are going to die in the upcoming battle. ::sniff::
He’d been given a side sword to carry at his right, a truncheon to carry at his left, and a small round shield. The first thing the Wall Guard had taught him was how to draw the sword by reaching down with his right hand—not lowering his shield—and pulling it free of the sheath.
This threw me off for a bit. Aside from being reasonably certain that left and right are switched up, I had forgotten that Kaladin never really did spend any time learning to fight with a sword. He learned some about fighting against a Shardblade, and Syl has become a Blade occasionally—but that’s been mostly for show. For all Adolin’s offers to teach him, Kaladin just never quite got around to learning the basics of using a sword in battle. It took the Wall Guard and a bunch of tenners to convince him there was anything he really needed to learn.
“…But the highmarshal knows what to do. I suspect that if we didn’t share with people like Velalant, we’d have to fight them off from seizing the grain. At least this way, people are eventually getting fed, and we can watch the wall.”
They talked like that a lot. Holding the city wall was their job, and if they looked too far afield—tried too hard to police the city or bring down the cult—they’d lose their focus. The city had to stand. Even if it burned inside, it had to stand.
That’s a tough one.
“… But first thing that Azure did when he took command? Had us attack the low monastery, by the eastern gates, away from the palace. I know men from other companies who were on that assault. The place had been overrun by rioters.”
“They had a Soulcaster, didn’t they?”
Beard nodded. “Only one in the city that wasn’t at the palace when it … you know.”
Beard doesn’t know, I think, just how they are able to use the Soulcaster without drawing the screamers, but at least we know now that they have a fabrial.
“Form up!” Kaladin shouted, right before Noro did it.
Storms. I’m not their commander. Feeling like an idiot, Kaladin took his own pike…
Oops. During the wait, while the Fused are attacking other sections of the wall, Kaladin has to forcibly restrain himself from issuing orders; each time, Lieutenant Noro says much the same thing he was thinking, just… more slowly, more relaxed, and with too much explanation. After the attack is over, he has to be reminded that Kholinar has plenty of surgeons to care for the wounded; his “field medicine training” would not be needed.
I have mixed reactions to this. For the first part, Noro may be an okay commander for guards on patrol, but it seems to me that he wouldn’t be a very good leader on a battlefield. At least compared to Kaladin, he seems very slow to issue orders or to realize when his men need a firm hand. I really feel kind of bad for Kaladin; it’s really frustrating to have to work for someone who’s not as good at their job as you are!
The surgeon’s question, though, really makes me wonder some things. As part of Sadeas’s bridge crews, the only medical care they got was what they did themselves, and Kaladin’s “field medicine”—a.k.a. genuine surgical training that he had to pretend was just something he picked up along the way—saved several lives. But what about his time in Amaram’s army? Did they not have full medical units there? What about his time as Dalinar’s bodyguard team? Why does it come as such a surprise to him that there are plenty of actual, trained surgeons—especially in the capital city—to deal with any wounded? Is it just because he’s off-balance, or is it that he’s not used to having adequate medical care in the armies? Is it likely that even in the armies, the lighteyes had lots of surgeons, while the darkeyes only got treatment after the lighteyes were all cared for? If that’s the case, then field medicine would be the only way a lot of darkeyed soldiers would survive long enough for the “real surgeons” to get to them.
Places & Peoples
It felt wrong to have to defend themselves from their own people—brought back memories of being in Amaram’s army, bivouacking near towns. Everyone had always talked about the glories of the army and the fight on the Shattered Plains. And yet, once towns got done gawking, they transitioned to hostility with remarkable speed. An army was the sort of thing everyone wanted to have, so long as it was off doing important things elsewhere.
Yep yep. I think a lot of our RL veterans could speak to this, in more ways than one.
“We’ll be fine. The good people know this food goes to them eventually.”
Yes, after they wait hours in line at Velalant’s distribution stations.
Apparently the Guard are unaware that these people really might not get any of the food later. They haven’t seen what Shallan observed, about the poor people getting tossed out of line on various pretexts so that the servants of the lighteyes can get theirs first.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Half of those belong to the cult anyway,” Beard noted. “One of these days, I’ll have to infiltrate that. Might have to marry their high priestess, but let me tell you, I’m terrible in a harem. Last time, the other men grew jealous of me taking all the priestess’s attention.”
Beard, you’re a nutcase. Heh.
Noro was the only one in the squad who wore a beard, though his wasn’t exactly inspiring. Rock would have laughed it to shame and euthanized it with a razor and some soap.
LOL.
Weighty Words
The two kept trying to get Kaladin to play cards with them.
It was an uncomfortable reminder of Sah and the parshmen.
This may seem like an odd place for such a quotation, but Sanderson is setting up the conflict which, a few chapters from now, will paralyze Kaladin in battle and will be one of the keys to his inability to speak his Fourth Ideal. Right now, he just feels uncomfortable with the parallels between his different groups, but it’s going to get far worse than discomfort. Poor Windrunner…
Maddened Motivations
Farther into the city—obscured by the gathering crowds—a group of people approached in stark violet, with masks obscuring their faces. Kaladin watched uncomfortably as they started whipping their own forearms. Drawing painspren, which climbed from the ground around them, like hands missing the skin.
Except these were too large, and the wrong color, and … and didn’t seem human.
“I prayed to the spren of the night and they came to me!” a man at their forefront shouted, raising hands high. “They rid me of my pain!”
“Oh no…” Syl whispered.
“Embrace them! The spren of changes! The spren of a new storm, a new land. A new people!”
There is just so much wrong here. A cult so driven by sensation—any sensation—that they go in for public self-flagellation is bad enough. The fact that they’re drawing the corrupted painspren doesn’t help any. The claim that “the spren of the night” could rid them of their pain… that’s totally creepy. What is he talking about? Are they dealing with Odium-spren and the whole “give me your pain” thing here, setting us up for the book’s ending? And just what is it that makes Syl so worried? Is she seeing Voidspren among them? So many questions!
It would have been easy to fight that crowd—they were basically unarmed. But while training prepared you for the mechanics of the fight, the emotions were another thing entirely. Syl huddled on his shoulder, staring back along the street.
I don’t really have anything to say about this; it just seemed necessary to include it.
The palace, ever in gloom, dominated the far side. The Wall Guard barely patrolled the section of wall that passed behind it.
For all that it seems odd not to patrol the wall behind the palace, it’s probably a storming good thing they don’t. Last thing the city needs is for the Wall Guard to fall prey to the assorted Unmade hanging out in that area.
Cosmere Connections
“Have you noticed the odd thing about her Shardblade? No gemstone on the pommel or crossguard.”
…
Aside from his fellow Radiants’ Blades, he’d seen one Shardblade before that didn’t have a gemstone on it. The Blade of the Assassin in White. An Honorblade, which granted Radiant powers to whoever held it. If Azure held a weapon that let her have the power of Soulcasting, perhaps that explained why the screamers hadn’t found out yet.
Kaladin’s thought about an Honorblade is a good insight for him. How does he know it’s a Shardblade, though? It’s pretty small for your average Shardblade; why doesn’t he assume it’s just an ordinary, if somewhat ornate, sword?
And the burning question… what is it, really? Is it Awakened, like Nightblood only different? What if it is just an ordinary sword?
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Aside from the corrupted painspren summoned by the Cult, Syl is really the only spren we see in this chapter. She asks some interesting questions, though.
“Dalinar thinks God isn’t dead,” she said. “Just that the Almighty—Honor—was never actually God.”
“You’re part of Honor. Doesn’t that offend you?”
“Every child eventually realizes that her father isn’t actually God.”
She looked at him. “Do you think anybody is watching? Do you really think there isn’t anything out there?”
Strange question to answer, to a little bit of a divinity.
While it’s often interesting to discuss religion in books, and especially the way Sanderson deals with religion for his characters and cultures, I always feel like I’m cheating when the subject comes up. We know so much more than they do about what’s going on in their universe, it hardly seems fair!
The Stormlight Archive has, so far, dealt with a whole lot of people who question the existence, or at least the validity, of their presumed gods. Ishar claims to be god, Jasnah denies that there is a god, Beard is sure no one is watching, and Dalinar believes that there is a god, but they were wrong in thinking that Honor was it. Here, Kaladin delivers a mini-lecture on how his beliefs have changed, which is wholly subjective, but he ends with this thought:
With all due respect, I think Dalinar’s beliefs sound too convenient. Now that one deity has proven faulty, he insists the Almighty must never have been God? That there must be something else? I don’t like it. So … maybe this simply isn’t a question we can ever answer.”
Again, it’s purely subjective, but that’s the nature of faith: If you had objective proof, you wouldn’t need “faith” to believe. Some people take that as a reason to never believe anything they see as “religion,” but fail to realize how many other things they take on faith. (That’s too big a conversation for this space, though!) Dalinar at least has some… information, however untrustworthy some might think it; he has visions, sent by Honor through the Stormfather, telling him that Honor himself, the one Vorinism calls God, has been destroyed.
While it wouldn’t be a very close parallel, one could see this as an analog to the Christian faith, where God himself was killed but returned to life. The problem (at least for me) is twofold.
One, we already know that the Shard Vessels were mortals, and some of them not very nice mortals, before they picked up the Shards. That makes them incredibly powerful, but I can’t see them as “real gods”—they only have one portion of the full godhood, and they wield that power according to their own flawed personalities.
Two, Vorinism presents Honor as God, and Cultivation as superstition. If they knew the truth, Cultivation is every bit as much “god” as Honor ever was. So… loath as I am to sneer at people’s religions, at least Vorinism is a deeply mistaken set of beliefs. What are we to do with that? People need religion, and if they reject one, they will turn to another, even though they might not call it that. Too often, what they turn to is destructive to its adherents and the society they inhabit.
Well, I hope Dalinar can follow up on his instincts and sort some things out. There is solid information to be had, although he’ll only ever be able to get it through biased sources.
Sheer Speculation
For one reason and another, I was scrolling through this chapter’s beta read comments in preparation for this discussion. I’m amused to see that “Azure = Vivenna” had by this point become my new favorite-but-obviously-looney theory. LOL. I was also absolutely sure that Azure had to be either a Lightweaver or an Elsecaller, because obviously that was how she was providing the Soulcast food to the city. Oh well…
More beta humor: At this point, a whole lot of us were speculating that Beard might be a crazy Herald. Surely there had to be something Significant about the guy! I have to admit, his claim that “no one is watching over us” would have been pretty brilliant coming from a Herald. Alas.
Quality Quotations
‘You know what I need for the apocalypse? You know what would be really handy? A new coat. Extra sequins.’
Okay, that’s about all I’ve got, though if you get a good discussion going in the comments you may stir up more! Join us again next week for Chapter 73, in which Shallan makes some interesting discoveries about members of her team.
Alice is done making drama props and sets, as the high school drama performance dates have arrived. Teenagers are exhausting, y’all.
About the Author
Alice Arneson
Author
Alice is done making drama props and sets, as the high school drama performance dates have arrived. Teenagers are exhausting, y’all.
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I’ll give this to Adolin, I could never pull off a yellow suit.
I don’t have any new loony theories for this chapter.
Oh, about Azure’s blade. I think we know it’s a shardblade because it cuts like one.
Austin
6 years ago
Regarding the real “God” discussion, Brandon has stated that he will never definitively answer if there is a true God in the Cosmere. So that will always remain a philosophical discussion in his books.
Its pretty funny that kaladin agrees with the other guards that the suit is indeed “a tad bright” i want to see some artwork of this now.
John
6 years ago
Regarding Kaladin’s upcoming inaction from wanting to defend conflicting factions, I was suddenly reminded of Jamie Lannister and his speech on conflicting oaths to Brienne.
An Awakened blade is, at the very least, an imitation of a Shardblade (or the Honorblades? I can’t remember which one the WoB said Vasher got the inspiration from). As @1/soursavior said, the Wall Guard call it a shardblade because it cuts inanimate objects like a shardblade, and they have no frame of reference for something else that could do that. Even Szeth considers Nightblood to be a Shardblade. The main difference being the fact that you can’t dismiss them and so have to keep them in an aluminum sheath (scabbard? I’m not sure what the difference is, if there is one…) to keep them from cutting things inadvertently, and the way it kills living objects. As we see in a few chapters, Azure/Vivi’s blade sucks the color out of those it kills, just like Nightblood, so I believe it is Awakened.
First, while Kaladin was under Amaram, he would bribe the surgeons to give his men preference. Originally the surgeons would only care for the lighteyes, and didn’t bother with the dark eyes till it was already too late for them. With the bribes however, as long as there wasn’t a lighteyes in the immediate area wounded, the surgeons would care for Kaladin’s men. While under Dalinar, Kaladin’s men were trained in field medicine. Since they trained by getting rid of bandits, the surgeons would not be readily available as they would be back at the warcamp or with the groups that go on plateau assaults. Also of note, Kaladin made Dalinar promise that his men would not be used on plateau assaults. So the main danger to his men’s lives during their tenure as Dalinar’s guards were any assassins (which did not occur except at the bridge crossing), or Szeth the assassin in white, which you will either end up dead, or with wounds that do not bleed out. So I think that is why it has not come up yet.
Second, Brandon has gone on record that he wants to keep the question of “God”, a question that is never answered. That way people with beliefs like Dalinar and Jasnah can co-exist with differing views and neither be “wrong”.
For instance Dalinar has experienced a phenomena that he feels is a higher power. Jasnah conversely feels it is no different than any of the other powers, and even if there was such a being, she feels and I quote “And what I feel is that spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility.”
So both parties can believe as they do, and readers can identify with whichever character they wish without issue and everyone takes something from the experience. I really do appreciate how Brandon has gone about it.
Re: Azure’s blade, I also believe she later tells the spren on the ship in Shadesmar that it is a “shardblade without a spren”. So, if a shard blade is something made of investiture, then it is a shardbalde if it has been awakened with breath. But, it is not the “higher” investiture of a spren, which is a splinter? of divinity. The exact breakdowns of investiture levels are still fuzzy for me sometimes.
I agree with Jory from the beta read, I had the same thought when I read this chapter that this story from Beard was true and that is what happened to Dalinar’s knife!
Interesting thoughts/discussion of the role of religion and faith in Stormlight. It is yet another topic that I think Sanderson handles well and provides many perspectives so people can think about it.
@5 LazerWulfScabbard. A Scabbard is a rigid container for a bladed and edged implement. It is often, though not necessarily, of multi-layer construction. An inner and outer layer. The outer layer protecting the implement from outside influences and the inner layer protecting the implement form the outer layer (both as an insulator and as providing a difference in hardness from the outer material). The inner layer also usually has a dual purpose of creating gas/fluid tight environment for the implement. Securing of the implement in the scabbard is usually based on gravity fed containment (relying primarily on an ideal range of orientation to keep the implement in the container). A Scabbard may have a secondary securing piece intended to prevent unintentional removal when the whole is outside the range of ideal orientation.
Sheath. A sheath is flexible or semi-rigid container for a bladed and edged implement. It is often, though not necessarily, of single layer construction. Wherein the inside of the main body material is of a different treatment then the outside. Sheaths often allow gas/fluid to pass through them to some degree. Either because of the nature of the material used, by design of the container, or both. Securing of the implement in the Sheath is usually based on a friction fit (either points of close contact with the implement or full contact). A Sheath might not (but often does) have a secondary securing piece intended to prevent unintentional removal when the whole is outside the range of ideal orientation.
Henrik
6 years ago
With regards to the sword and carrying it on the right side – that’s how Roman legionnairs carried theirs, for what it’s worth. So probably not mixed up : )
Once upon a time within the deepest corners of the fandom, a bored fan wrote a quick, not particularly well written, snippet featuring what it meant to be fashion obsessed for teenage Adolin. The snippet had teenage Adolin proudly and over-confidently stroll around in a bright yellow suit (it is the latest fashion do!) only to be laughed at by Dalinar and Renarin for how ridiculous it looked. If I recall properly, the snippet ended years later with Dalinar telling Adolin that while he agrees to allow him to wear whatever he wants for his own wedding, bright yellow was forbidden. Forever.
You can all guess what my surprise upon reading Adolin wearing a bright yellow suit and being laughed at for how ridiculous it looks within the actual book….
@10: I forgot I was also going to comment on that. Assuming that the side sword is shorter than the arm length, it should be entirely possible to draw the sword from the same side you are wearing it.
Frankly, we don’t know how the Wall Guard soldiers saw the darkeyes – the question, somehow, never came up. However, I do find it significant that they were _all_ lighteyes. This couldn’t have happened by accident. So, it is actually fairly likely that they _did_ look down on the darkeyes. It is a particularly interesting contrast to the Palace Guard, which, as we saw in WoK and will see in the unpcoming chapters, was mixed. As was the Cobalt Guard. Both the more prestigious and lucrative postings, one would think, but then, they likely evolved from Dalinar’s elites and he had been unusually meritocratic even if his younger, darker days. Whereas the Wall Guard appears to have been grandfathered from whatever Kholinar had before the bros from the collateral branch usurped the previous rulers.
I also find that despite the fact that the “world” of low-dahner lighteyes was mentioned, the Wall Guard chapters didn’t give us any real feeling of what it was like. For instance – shouldn’t Kaladin’s new pals have had families in the city? If they were a kind of hereditary military caste, shouldn’t they have had ties to the people on the Shattered Plains? Yet, they all seemed like single and rootless men, with no other loyalties and worries than holding the city walls. IMHO, that’s a big missed opportunity, worldbuilding and characterization-wise. Because you’d think that something like the Wall Guard would have been perfect for the lighteyed soldiers who, after a decade or so of following the drum, would have wanted to settle down and start a family. And yes, they seemed to be trained and experienced, but none of them appeared to be a veteran of Dalinar’s army back from his border wars with the Herdazians, the Reshi and the Vedens.
Concerning the field surgeons – I thought that the problem in Amaram’s army was that the surgeon’s assisstants wouldn’t _fetch_ the dark-eyed soldiers from the battlefield without bribes, but surgeons did treat them if their comrades brought them around after the battles? Which was too late for many, granted. On the Shattered Plains we have seen surgeons working on the wounded soldiers after the battles even in Sadeas’s army, leave alone in the Kholin one – though, granted, the soldiers were a somewhat more scarce resource there.
The word “euthanized” sticks out like a sore thumb to me for some reason.
The cult guys in “stark violet” seem to be preaching the Testament of Odium, right enough. The color of their clothing is reminiscent of Voidlight.
“Is it Awakened, like Nightblood only different?”
Yes. By this point, if we collate the Warbreaker Annotations re: what would have happened if they didn’t manage to prevent the war, the relevant stuff in Oathbringer and the recent WoBs, a new and even more tragic picture of Vasher’s murder of his wife emerges. Namely, that it was unnecessary:
He was afraid that Shashara would have shared the technology of Nightblood’s creation? According to the Warbreaker Annotations she had already done so, with Yesteel, before her husband murdered her.
Azure/Vivenna’s sword in OB seems to be the product of this technology, and it is not a patch on Nightblood and not the kind of weapon, proliferation of which needs to be stopped at all costs. Vivenna has no compunction about spreading this technology further.
And recent WoBs have been rather explicit that Nightblood was the result of a very unique turn of events which resulted in the sword containing a bit of Ruin, and would be pretty much impossible to replicate.
Alice included the following quote:” They talked like that a lot. Holding the city wall was their job, and if they looked too far afield—tried too hard to police the city or bring down the cult—they’d lose their focus. The city had to stand. Even if it burned inside, it had to stand.”
I grew up in the Boston area and this reminds me of a story I heard about a snowplow driver who was working during the Blizzard of ’78. This driver kept a stretch of Route 1 clear. He went up and down. Yet nobody could access it since the streets leading to get onto Route 1 were completely snow covered.
I guess that sometimes you can only worry about what is assigned to you. Even if in the bigger picture, it is meaningless. The entire city was on the verge of rioting and worse. Yet, the Wall Guard just patrolled the city Wall itself and the areas surrounding it. But at least in their small area of responsibility (relative to patrolling all aspects of the entire city), they were able to achieve a level of control/security. Even if it proved to be a false level of security when the Fused launched their full-on offensive.
Thanks for reading my musings. AndrewHB aka the musespren
Austin
6 years ago
@12 – But still very awkward to draw it from the same side. Unless it was no bigger than a knife.
@15: A Gladius’ blade was a little over 2 feet long. The Romans fought in close Phalanx formations, so drawing it across the body, there was a chance you could hit the soldier next to you. On the same side, I would imagine that you would just draw it straight back (not up), and then your arm would be in position to just thrust straight forward and stab someone.
About the {G/g}od debate. Even in RL there is no consensus about god or gods or nothing. The Cosmere is not alone in this.
I suspect that every social level in society (RL and fantasy) looks down on the ones below and suspects the ones between them and the top are losers that really don’t belong there. Even barring physical differences people make class distinctions using speech and clothing to place you in your “proper” position.
Austin
6 years ago
@18 – That link only discusses the reason why it was on the right, now how they drew it. I watched some rather awkward sword videos on Youtube, and one guy demonstrated drawing from the right. You basically have to rotate your right hand to where your palm is facing away and be very careful drawing it lol. I’m not sure what you meant by “straight back” though.
I’ve always really appreciated Brandon’s take on religion, and the variety of religious characters he has. I feel like the characters’ religions actually inform their choices and views in a realistic way, but without reducing characters to either fanatics or hypocrites, etc.
Funny thing is though, despite being religious, Jasnah is the character that resonates most with me ;)
Regarding the Cosmere – we also don’t even know if Adonalsium was a God in the sense many people would view it, at least in the Western world (as in, creator of the universe, all powerful/knowing/good).
Little interesting tidbit. Brandon has commented that Jasnah is the most like himself, which is ironic because (like you) he considers himself a theist while she is an atheist.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Which character in The Stormlight Archive do you most relate to?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] …This is a good question, but it’s a hard question. Because all of my characters are partially me, and partially not me. Every character… So, in some ways, Jasnah is the most “me” you’re gonna get in one of these books, because you’ve got the very analytical, somewhat ambitious, gregarious person who ignores what everyone tells them is the smart thing to do and does their own thing, and then proves everyone wrong. On the other hand, a fundamental pillar of Jasnah is her atheism, where I am a theist. And so it’s like, every character, I can probably go on like that about. Every character’s got a chunk of me and a chunk that’s deliberately not me.
@20: True, I am making some assumptions on how they might draw it. I don’t have anything to actually practice with, so I was just using my imagination. In my mind, the scabbard is on the hip, but only affixed in one point. So as you reach down and grab it as you would a gun, palm inward, you draw your hand backwards. The scabbard pivots so that the tip of the sword points forward, allowing you to draw the sword.
I hadn’t looked up anything, but I’ll admit the palm-outward draw makes a bit more sense (or perhaps a palm-inward reverse grip, so that when you draw the sword it points down your forearm, like a knife-fighters grip, or Ahsoka Tano’s lightsaber grip). It is a bit awkward, but I would imagine it would become less so as you practiced it, and the practicality would override any discomfort you may feel.
Later in that same thread they ponder why they eventually switched to wearing it on the left, and someone suggested that the development of better armor that allowed more range of motion allowed someone to more easily draw the sword from across their body.
@21: It is not odd at all… I am not a religious person and yet Jasnah is one of the characters I relate the less to… in part because of her penchant towards… religion. I know this sounds odd, but I found her character major themes are very much tied to religion. Her beliefs or in her case her lack of beliefs, due to an absence of substantial proof, defines her character arc which makes her a character I read as “very religiously involved”. And that doesn’t resonate with me. As a non-religious person, it isn’t just I do not believe in religion, it is more I seldom think about it. For me, it isn’t an important topic of discussion, it doesn’t matter, it is not relevant, whereas Jasnah’s character, even if she defines herself as an atheist, does believe religion is mightily important and spends a lot of think pondering about it.
As such, I am not surprised religiously inclined readers do relate to Jasnah for her constant questioning and reflection on the meaning of religion. When it comes to Brandon’s works, I have always found each of his series had characters asking those questions about religion, wondering, needing to know. With Jasnah, he wrote one of those characters, but one who came to the conclusion there is no God or none which has proven its existence. As a reader, those never are the characters I enjoy the most, in parts, because those aren’t topics nor themes I have a strong affinity for.
The biggest question I’d like to ask, though, is whether this is when Re-Shephir showed up in the basement in the first place.
Do we even know how long Re-Shephir was trapped? Could she/it have been trapped 10/50/200 years before the crystal was recorded?
Incidentally, I’m curious about his summoning Syl while being part of the Wall Guard. Does she manifest as a very, very tiny Shardblade so no one notices? A little Shard-pocket-knife? Or does he have to go to the privy so he can be alone? I’m sure she’d have a few choice comments on that situation. The logistical possibilities are… amusing.
I thought he just summoned/dismissed here at night, sort of like a booster shot to keep his eye brightness at a consistent level.
I have mixed reactions to this. For the first part, Noro may be an okay commander for guards on patrol, but it seems to me that he wouldn’t be a very good leader on a battlefield. At least compared to Kaladin, he seems very slow to issue orders or to realize when his men need a firm hand.
I haven’t been a soldier or policeman, but it seems to me that the types of leadership required for each role are fairly different in almost all circumstances (the obvious similar situation being a firefight/combat). So, it doesn’t surprise me that Kaladin react quicker to a battle than Noro, who would act quicker or differently if faced by a riot or while guarding a street/location.
re: Gods
I suppose the question on whether there is a God in the Cosmere depends on your definition of the term. For instance, Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial together, as well as the people who populated that world (at least initially). In most definitions, that would make them gods, at least on that world. To others, though, they were “merely” Shards..
@24 – that actually makes perfect sense. As somebody who likes to think about God/religion and its meaning, I can relate to Jasnah more than perhaps an ‘indifferent’ type of athiest would.
I also feel slightly gratified at Brandon’s own preference in @22. Thanks, Scath ;)
I like seeing Kaladin have his thinking challenged in this chapter. It helps us to see where he’s grown a lot (thanks to friends like Adolin and Shallan) and where he still hasn’t (some things of his dark eye upbringing that he doesn’t notice, re: field surgery options).
So Adolin in a yellow suit (with sequins? Really?) is something I really would love a fan art of. It would be so… special. Since we almost always have seen him in Kholin Blue so far.
I have more thoughts. But I can’t find them anymore, it’s been a long day. Thanks for all the work you put in Alice!
Kaladin is suffering from culture shock, which is always interesting when it’s being experienced by a person who thought he knew the culture that’s shocking him.
Maybe Jasnah would be able to be ambivalent about religion if she were not the princess of Alethkar and thus is forced to defend her lack of beliefs from all comers and defend her reputation from those who would try to put words in her mouth so to speak.
So far in the series we’ve seen two types of low-nahn lighteyes, the Wall Guard that looks askance at the so-called midders, and the ones like the guy who used to torment Gaz back in WoK, Lamaril or some such, that were nasty to darkeyes because they felt the gap between them wasn’t wide enough for comfort. There’s something about this that tickles my analysis but I cannot place it right now.
To my knowledge we do not yet know how long Re-shephir was trapped. So it could have been for any length of time.
Good point on summoning Syl.
@26 Lisamarie
Glad to help :)
@29 EvilMonkey
I agree on all points. I also find it interesting that every single instance where Jasnah discusses religion, is because another character challenges her on it. Shallan even says twice that Jasnah largely does not talk about her own beliefs. Kabsal accused Jasnah of being ashamed of her beliefs if she doesn’t bring them up, to which Shallan then defended Jasnah. And I would know, I have poured over every single quote regarding Jasnah across all three books. Taravangian, Shallan, Kabsal, Amaram, Dalinar, and Ruthar all bring it up to her. She merely responds defending her own beliefs.
@27: I would die to see a rendition of Adolin wearing those ridiculous outfit especially if they are made by my favorite artists. I swear, I am utterly convinced Brandon purposefully sat down and thought on what would be the most ridiculous suits he could put Adolin in. It is not pure happenstance he put the poor man within both a blue powdered and a yellow suits…. I mean, a yellow suit! Big bird anyone?
@29: Brandon Sanderson chose to have his atheist character be a princess who’d need to defend her views on religion on a regular basis: this was a deliberate choice and it does allow her character to be religiously themed. It may be Jasnah wouldn’t discuss religion so often if others never challenged her, but fact remains the author chose to have her character specifically be within situations where she’ll need to explain them.
As such, on pure narrative purposes, Jasnah remains one of the character by whom religious beliefs are being explored, no matter what her thoughts on the matter may be. Readers who enjoy discussions on beliefs and religion are likely to enjoy those passages. On the reverse, readers not being particularly interested within such topics may end up thinking Jasnah, despite her lack of beliefs, is one of the vessels by which religious themes are being the most explored. Hence, the lack of belief doesn’t mean her narrative is void of religion. It may be this was the compromise Brandon made for having an atheist character: at least have one who discusses those issues as opposed to one who would just not care at all and shrug it off. It can see why a deeply religious individual would write it this way, but it remains a theme which doesn’t resonate within me very strongly
I still find it really odd that even during the quiet stretches the Wall Guard soldiers don’t speak about their families and friends, that they are not worried about their loved ones despite there being no provisions in place for feeding or protecting their dependants. Also, in the future chapter Kaladin will be the only one to spend his down time visiting the city (and liasing with other members of the team), while his new mates will return straight back to the Wall. And the way they speak about “the good people of the city” as if most of them aren’t supposed to be part of said people and deeply connected to them?!
IMHO this whole “their own world” of low-level light-eyes which they are supposed to belong to is very much “tell, don’t show” thing. Indeed, what is shown is pretty much the opposite, that they are as rootless as the bridgemen became on the Shattered Plains.
Evil Monkey @29:
I dunno, I would say that Lamaril had a higher position than the soldiers of the Wall Guard. He was, after all, an officer. And we don’t know how the Wall Guards would have treated the darkeyes if they had to routinely work with them, which they don’t. I’d have really liked to get a closer look at how mixed units like the archers used to work – since there are going to be imminent changes during the year between books 3 and 4, one assumes.
I also think that Beard is wrong and that Cultivation _is_ watching. Does she do “the last walk” thing, I wonder? Because I fully expect her to do it with Taravangian once he fulfills his part in her plan and dies…
I am also not sure how not being nice and having a human part should disqualify the Shards from being gods comparable to those of RL religions? I mean, we can find deities behaving in volatile and unpleasant manner practically in any RL scripture… And it isn’t like the Shards don’t occasionally listen and intervene. Not to mention that some of them _did_ create a world and it’s people. And Adonalsium must have created almost everything in the Cosmere to begin with, so how doesn’t he qualify as a single creator God? Is it just the question of the afterlife? But then, Adonalsium might have had more insight and control there than the Shards, though, of course, we aren’t going to learn for certain.
I think that depends on your perspective and to whom you speak. I do know at least for Jasnah, the God Beyond is disqualified under her comments to Shallan about seeking approval from an unknowable and unseeable deity is fruitless. I would also say all the shards and adonalsium would be disqualified because another instance she discusses with Shallan about the Almighty, Jasnah comments on how she is not arguing on whether or not the Almighty exists. What she is however saying is a being such as the Almighty is not worthy of worship for her. Given that fundamentally all the shards work within the same rules, and fundamentals, then such logic would apply to all of them. Further since Adonalsium also functions under all the same rules and fundamentals as the shards that made him up (I say him because Brandon has confirmed Adonalsium originally had a vessel, the vessel was a him, and the vessel is dead) then by extension Adonalsium is also not worthy of worship to her.
Conversely Sazed would have a very different response. I do not think it would be spoilers to say that for Sazed, so long as the religion provides some benefit (hope, emotional/mental healing, community), then it does not matter what form the deity takes, or even if there is a deity at all. All that matters is how the religion causes the person worshiping it to feel. So Sazed would not care whether the shards were considered gods or not, so long as the religious beliefs that cropped up around them provided what I mentioned above.
Dalinar would have something entirely different to say. He would not see the shards as gods. He seeks something in his words “greater”. Now what he would term greater? That is entirely individualistic to him. What he experienced and felt with that light is enough for him to know in his heart, that whatever is the source of that light is what god is to him.
So I think it is rather beautiful that so many people can have so many different experiences with the divine, and all be valid and embraced.
Porphyrogenitus
6 years ago
Re. wearing a sword on the right: Firstly, the Romans continued to wear swords on the right even after switching to the Spatha, at least in some contexts. I think it persisted longer for cavalry than for infantry. Secondly, IIRC there is a sidearm draw referred to as a cavalry draw for pistols that involves wearing the gun butt forward on your dominant side. You twist your wrist when you grasp it and the act of drawing the weapon naturally untwists the wrist and pulls the weapon into line. I remember reading something about the speed of various draws and the strange and exotic cavalry draw was marginally faster than the alternatives. I suspect that even with a longer blade one could manage a sword draw using similar mechanics, without failing the weapon around or poking somebody next to you and with the natural movements of your wrist bringing the blade in line with the enemy almost automatically. Thirdly, wearing a weapon on the dominant side would normally be accomplished by means of a baldric rather than a sword belt, IIRC, which would change the mechanics of the draw due to the different way in which the weapon hung at rest.
Frankly, for the Wall Guard specifically, I’m surprised that they’re not focused on missiles, polearms, and axes. Darts, javelins, bows, and crossbows (or whichever subsets of that list are present in Roshar) should be ideal for fighting from atop a wall (with the added bonus of being a threat to flying hostiles). Polearms should allow for hand-to-hand combat from atop the wall against hostiles trying to scale it via rope or ladder, and would prove beneficial for containing breaches (either beach-head sections of wall that the enemy has surmounted, or physical breaches where a section of wall is collapsed or removed). Axes would be ideal for attacking enemies that are about to crest the wall, for chopping through ladders and ropes used for the same, and for battering through the natural armor of the specific enemy that they will be facing (axes being far better at that role than most sword patterns would be). It seems most likely to me that two factors determined their arms, neither of which were relevant to being effective against a Parshendi assault: policing functions would lead to carrying the truncheons (only a viable battlefield weapon when your objective is to take prisoners and your enemy is untrained and unequipped), while the emulation of shardbearers would lead to light-eyed soldiers favoring swords over other, more effective options (social and aesthetic reasons are powerful ones and have often led to less optimal choices).
Why does it come as such a surprise to him that there are plenty of actual, trained surgeons—especially in the capital city—to deal with any wounded?
I don’t think it does. I just think he isn’t used to relying on the army’s surgeons, and also this whole book (and Kaladin’s whole arc) is about his Tragic Flaw: he’s too heroic. Specifically, he cannot accept that any bad thing can ever happen to anyone he knows–he should be able to prevent them all. Brandon, I presume consciously, made a character whose flaw is heroism.
Kaladin’s thought about an Honorblade is a good insight for him. How does he know it’s a Shardblade, though? It’s pretty small for your average Shardblade; why doesn’t he assume it’s just an ordinary, if somewhat ornate, sword?
And the burning question… what is it, really? Is it Awakened, like Nightblood only different? What if it is just an ordinary sword?
He knows that Azure is a Shardbearer by this time because he was told IIRC.
That makes them incredibly powerful, but I can’t see them as “real gods”—they only have one portion of the full godhood, and they wield that power according to their own flawed personalities.
You’re using a very specific and culture-bound definition of “real god” there which would exclude, say, Loki or Hermes or Varuna or Crow.
An Awakened blade is, at the very least, an imitation of a Shardblade (or the Honorblades? I can’t remember which one the WoB said Vasher got the inspiration from). As @1/soursavior said, the Wall Guard call it a shardblade because it cuts inanimate objects like a shardblade, and they have no frame of reference for something else that could do that. Even Szeth considers Nightblood to be a Shardblade.
You know who else considers Nightblood a Shardblade? The Herald Nale. Oh, and one other person, whose opinion might matter: Brandon Sanderson. Nightblood and his sister were made in imitation of Rosharan Shardblades, which category includes Radiant blades and Herald blades.
@34 I agree, there are ways around the sword draw that make it work. Besides, for Roman soldiers, there wasn’t a need for a quick draw. That is not what they needed in their attack formation. The troop would be prepared as they formed up and got ready to attack.Then, when the formation is broken they would have already had the swords drawn. And the whole sword vs. more useful weapons on the wall seems a valid point. It must have been a “culture” preference over a practical one.
I thought the Wall Guard mostly used pikes, but had swords and truncheons when deployed for “civil” duty on the city streets, where very long spears would be impractical?
I dunno if anyone wants to hazard a guess as to who is part of the primary (4 characters) the secondary (3 characters) and the tertiary (2 characters)?
I don’t think that Azure and Zahel will play a major part. Brandon is talking about the three arcs of the book and compares it to the three arch in TWoK (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar). So every arc would need some main players. Being too much time in the heads of Zahel and Azure would probably need some Warbreaker insights on the readers side. I am not sure whether book 4 will already call for such Cosmere awareness.
I have no idea who the characters may be. And I am even more curious which three locations we will see. Urithiru for sure (probably arc 1). As to the others…? Azir? Thaylen City? The Shattered Plains? Azir? We will probably have to wait for Shinovar till book 5. I would love to see Aimia…
I agree with @41 bird. I am pretty sure the 9 characters will be taken out of our regular casts of characters who are: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin, Venli, Szeth, Jasnah and Navani. Those were the characters having been in the planning so far: I honestly do not see Brandon tossing away half his major cast of characters to focus half the book on new ones. He also said the arcs were divided by location. Hence, since Urithiru is where most of our characters currently are, I thought it was reasonable to expect the first arc to focus on them (that group could also travel together to another location at some point, we never know). I never saw Venli as being the primary arc in the same manner as Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar were in their respective book. I would thus put the Parshendi arc within the second one. The third arc is a bit more nebulous.
So, my thoughts:
1) (Urithiru/Shadesmar/maybe Jah Keved) Shallan, Adolin, Jasnah. For the fourth, it could be Szeth, Dalinar or Navani. Probably Navani because she steadily has had her viewpoints and I can’t see her anywhere else.
2) (Conquered Alethkar) Venli, Kaladin and for the third, it could be Moash. Or someone new.
3) (Shinovar/wherever Ishar is/new location?) This one is hard… but I am going to go with Dalinar and Szeth. Both will not have a big book and both are scheduled to play a large role within the last book. Hence, the third arc could be the setup for book 5.
Of course, I could totally, irrevocably wrong here. What I feel the strongest about is the pairing of Shallan/Adolin and Venli/Kaladin within their respective arcs unless someone has good arguments why it should happen differently.
I do not foresee characters such as Renarin, Lift, Taravangian and Rysn getting more page time than they previously had. I suspect the interlude novella will feature either Ash or Taln.
Thoughts anyone? This is fun! I have to say I am VERY excited over RoW’s planning so far, a sharp difference from how I felt after seeing the OB one.
I see Kaladin, Shallan, Venli, and Rlain being the first arc in voidbringer controlled lands. Kaladin because of the excerpt posted earlier. Shallan to keep them hidden/disguised. Rlain to blend in and try to turn parshendi. Venli because by accident Rlain will be how they make contact with her and she joins team Kholin. Or Moash instead of Rlain to be a counter point to Kaladin and cause conflict. I see the secondary being Dalinar, Jasnah, and Adolin back at Urithiru. Dalinar needs to be in the tower to lead the radiants and possibly get the tower working with help from Navani to delve into the Sibling. Jasnah to rule as Queen of Alethkar and Adolin at her side to rule as Highprince of the Kholin princedom. The last I feel like it is going to be Shinovar with Szeth having gained approval from Dalinar to pursue the shamanate, but I cannot for the life of me figure out who would accompany him. Actually as I type this, Lift possibly?
So TLDR
First Arc: Kaladin, Shallan, Rlain, Venli or Kaladin, Shallan, Moash, Venli
The excerpt shows Kaladin going away from the main cast and Shallan needs to have her arc with the Ghostbloods/Sha-Janah/her family to happen. I do not see Brandon delaying it for one more book: it’s been dragging for a long time already. I also do not see him breaking apart the Shallan/Adolin newly married couple for the book, especially since they have yet to talk about many things, especially since this was a strongly criticized part of OB. Brandon will try to make it right. Oh and he promised we would get Adolin’s viewpoints on his relationship with Shallan: so these two are likely staying together.
Preview chapter imply Kaladin is alone and not disguised. He was out to get his family, doubtful the Highlady Kholin will accompany him. Shallan providing disguise in an infiltration mission has also been done in OB. I expect her arc to differ in RoW.
Shallan also now has an important function to fulfil (Highlady) and she also is Jasnah’s ward. So I doubt Brandon is breaking apart the Shallan, Jasnah, Adolin trio: all three are now the leaders of Alethkar. They have ties all together: Shallan and Adolin are married, Adolin is Jasnah’s cousin and he refused the throne, Jasnah is Shallan’s teacher. Shallan needs to learn how to soulcast. And they need to go back to Shadesmar because, Maya! We are supposed to see more of her. Adolin can’t go on his own, so he’s got to be paired with Shallan/Jasnah. They could be the second arc, but I really do not see which four known characters Venli could currently be paired with other than Kaladin and Moash.
Dalinar has a small role in this book, I thus think it is unlikely be in the leading position for any arc within the book. That’s why I am putting him as fourth character in the first arc or one of the tertiary arc characters.
I agree the third arc is likely to be Szeth going away on his mission. Lift is a contender to go with him though I like the pairing of him with Dalinar.
Here is another one:
1) (Urithiru/Shadesmar) Shallan, Adolin, Jasnah, Dalinar/Navani/Renarin (let’s keep Dalinar here for the family drama!) 2) (Conquered Alethkar/Horneater Peaks) Venli, Kaladin, Lirin 3) (Shinovar/travelling) Szeth, Lift
OR, Szeth stays and:
1) (Urithiru/Shadesmar) Shallan, Adolin/Renarin, Jasnah, Szeth (training Radiants!) (also Lift fits in there) 2) (Conquered Alethkar/Horneater Peaks) Venli, Kaladin, Lirin or Moash 3) (around the world politics) Dalinar, Navani (after his sons react badly to his book, Dalinar takes a foreign mission with Navani!)
With all due respect, my post was not in reply to you.
I will white out about further Kaladin discussion regarding the spoilered scene below
Kaladin revealed himself to Lirin, but that does not mean he is always without disguise. How else could Lirin know it was Kaladin?
Can easily get Adolin’s perspective without Shallan there.
Shallan was still Jasnah’s ward when she went to Kholinar. Jasnah realized Shallan grows when there is a more hands off approach, which is why she approved Shallan going to Kholinar. So the same could stand with infiltrating voidbringer lands. The Ghostbloods want Shallan to bring Sja-anat into the fold. She cannot exactly do that in Urithiru. She will need to be in voidbringer lands to make further contact.
To me Dalinar, Adolin and Jasnah make sense because they need to rule their respective responsibilities. Kaladin and Shallan make sense because they are radiants and are needed in the field (Kaladin for mobility, Shallan for espionage)
This post is not to get into an argument with you over who has to be the characters and in what order. It is further explaining my thoughts that are perfectly valid and I am entitled to. Just like you can have your own theories and thoughts on who you think is where.
All: let’s remember that this is an open, public discussion–anyone can answer or address anyone else, but it’s also important not to monopolize the conversation or insist on one’s own opinions or interpretations over those of anyone else. We appreciate the politeness with which disagreements generally play out in these comment threads, and for that civility to continue, we ask that you not make disagreements personal, or take other interpretations personally. In short, please don’t make disagreements about you, and keep the focus on the chapters under discussion–thanks.
I find this chapter also interesting regarding religious commentary regarding the cult. The Cult of the Moments seems to be linked up with the Unmade Heart of the Revel. In a lot of ways it is a perversion of what I mentioned regarding how Sazed would view religion. Instead of providing hope, and support, the cult provides fear and exclusion. It is kinda creepy how easily it can go either way when people are facing an uncertain future. Makes me wonder what happened to other ardents in the city. I cannot recall if it was mentioned. Were they potentially hunted down by the cult?
@Scàth Everybody here is entitled to express their own opinions. And I can only speak for myself and not for Gepeto, but I don’t think Gepeto’s answer was meant to undermine your thoughts on the topic, but to take them and spin their own thoughts further. I really appreciate the diverse arguments brought up here in this community and I especially value your insights and your incredible ability to dig up WoBs ;-) But let the arguing continue (in a friendly and respectful way) in order to come up with many different ideas (though Brandon might surprise us anyways ).
I really like the idea (that both of you brought up) that one arc takes place in Parshendi occupied locations. I am not sure whether Brandon’s wording allows for characters being in one arc, but different locations. At least for arc 1 he explicitly says that four characters are in one place all together. Unless Moash decides to bring down Roshone, I don’t think he will be in Kaladin’s home town. I also don’t think Shallan has to stay in Urithiru to be Highlady Kholin, though I am not sure whether she has to be with Kal. So she might fit in the third arc (the location that is the hardest to define for me – I still think Shinovar is too early).
Well… I don’t know. But I love the speculations and I am so hyped for the book. Already :D
Edit: More thoughts on the Cult of Moments is also appreciated. I think we discussed it already in an earlier chapter and we – unfortunately – still haven’t much more information on it.
I appreciate your thoughts and would respond, but as moderation was called for involvement I do not think it would benefit the discussion to continue on the topic. If you really want to continue to discuss this, I have changed my preferences again to allow messaging. Feel free to shoot me a message. Otherwise I posted my thoughts already in what I feel is a perfectly fine and respectful manner. Thank you.
Hmmmm, well we know the ardent that started the rebellion was killed, and there is one that joined the Cult of the Moments. Makes me wonder if there were more.
@51 Yeah. I saw that that comments were deleted and that there was a note by the moderators only after I posted my comment (it takes me too long to type on my phone and I didn’t check for updates^^). I agree. Let’s drop the discussion and go back to the current chapter. I’ll check whether there is a discussion on the SA4 update over on the 17thshard and might jump in there.
If I were an ardent in Kholinar at the time of the chapter, I would rather stay low than join the Cult or try to oppose it on my own. The ardent from the interlude (I don’t remember the name) was very courageous and honorable. But her acts weren’t helpful at all. Maybe I would try to help in a smaller way. Try to get access to food and share it quietly or something like that. We see what happens if you act in a very noticeable way..
Good points. The presence of the fused and cult of the moments does make holding service to practice vorin faith rather difficult. Perhaps some ardents tried what you suggested with the food, but since they are technically owned by lighteyes, the lighteyes left prevented them to hold their monopoly on food?
@50: Thanks. Those situations are very hard to deal with without destroying the mood of the whole thread which is why I asked moderation to make a statement. I can only hope the situation is now well understood by all. And you are right, I meant no disrespect, but to further the argumentation.
Putting it behind me, I do not think Highlady Kholin has to absolutely stay in Urithiru, but I do think she will stay close to Adolin. So far, Urithiru seems like the most likely location where they would evolve, but I wouldn’t bar them going to war in Jah Keved. I however do not think Shallan and Adolin will be evolving within separate arcs.
Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan and Jasnah try to reconquer Alethkar. Dalinar, Navani, and maybe Szeth stay in Urithiru. Venli and Moash show the enemy perspective.
There must have been other ardents at the place where Azure found the soulcaster, but most probably were in the palace.
I just discovered that I hadn’t made ANY comments in this discussion, and also that I really wish I’d had time to read the discussion here before I wrote tomorrow’s post. Oh well… y’all can bring things up again? :D
I have no current speculation on the three arcs for SA4, but I sure did enjoy reading the ideas here! Some very good points made by several. The only two things I can say with some confidence is that 1) Szeth won’t be going after the Shamanate very seriously yet – that pretty much has to be SA5 and 2) Venli almost HAS to be the focus of either the primary or secondary arc. I hope that Rlain is with her. Beyond that, I’ll have to think about it with both hands for a while!
Probably too late for tomorrow’s posts, but may I suggest that the articles warn about spoilers for both the Stormlight Archive and Warbreaker? After all, three characters from Warbreaker are significant already in the SA, and it was always intended as a Stormlight Archive prequel.
Carl, we normally try to include a spoiler warning for any other books we mention in the article. Sometimes it gets missed, but we do try. It’s in that paragraph near the beginning that says:
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. This week, there are very minor Cosmere spoilers, mostly having to do with Warbreaker. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
(Red added for visibility here, though you’ll notice that it’s all in black up at the top.) For tomorrow’s reread, the only – very minor – Cosmere spoiler is a one-off mention of Hoid.
Aeshdan
4 years ago
WRT to the surgeon question: Yes, there were surgical teams back in Amaram’s army, and yes, they always treated the lighteyes first. One of Kaladin’s flashbacks mentions him paying bribes to the surgeons so that his squad was always the first to get treated after any lighteyed wounded.
I’ll give this to Adolin, I could never pull off a yellow suit.
I don’t have any new loony theories for this chapter.
Oh, about Azure’s blade. I think we know it’s a shardblade because it cuts like one.
Regarding the real “God” discussion, Brandon has stated that he will never definitively answer if there is a true God in the Cosmere. So that will always remain a philosophical discussion in his books.
Its pretty funny that kaladin agrees with the other guards that the suit is indeed “a tad bright” i want to see some artwork of this now.
Regarding Kaladin’s upcoming inaction from wanting to defend conflicting factions, I was suddenly reminded of Jamie Lannister and his speech on conflicting oaths to Brienne.
An Awakened blade is, at the very least, an imitation of a Shardblade (or the Honorblades? I can’t remember which one the WoB said Vasher got the inspiration from). As @1/soursavior said, the Wall Guard call it a shardblade because it cuts inanimate objects like a shardblade, and they have no frame of reference for something else that could do that. Even Szeth considers Nightblood to be a Shardblade. The main difference being the fact that you can’t dismiss them and so have to keep them in an aluminum sheath (scabbard? I’m not sure what the difference is, if there is one…) to keep them from cutting things inadvertently, and the way it kills living objects. As we see in a few chapters, Azure/Vivi’s blade sucks the color out of those it kills, just like Nightblood, so I believe it is Awakened.
So few things
First, while Kaladin was under Amaram, he would bribe the surgeons to give his men preference. Originally the surgeons would only care for the lighteyes, and didn’t bother with the dark eyes till it was already too late for them. With the bribes however, as long as there wasn’t a lighteyes in the immediate area wounded, the surgeons would care for Kaladin’s men. While under Dalinar, Kaladin’s men were trained in field medicine. Since they trained by getting rid of bandits, the surgeons would not be readily available as they would be back at the warcamp or with the groups that go on plateau assaults. Also of note, Kaladin made Dalinar promise that his men would not be used on plateau assaults. So the main danger to his men’s lives during their tenure as Dalinar’s guards were any assassins (which did not occur except at the bridge crossing), or Szeth the assassin in white, which you will either end up dead, or with wounds that do not bleed out. So I think that is why it has not come up yet.
Second, Brandon has gone on record that he wants to keep the question of “God”, a question that is never answered. That way people with beliefs like Dalinar and Jasnah can co-exist with differing views and neither be “wrong”.
For instance Dalinar has experienced a phenomena that he feels is a higher power. Jasnah conversely feels it is no different than any of the other powers, and even if there was such a being, she feels and I quote “And what I feel is that spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility.”
So both parties can believe as they do, and readers can identify with whichever character they wish without issue and everyone takes something from the experience. I really do appreciate how Brandon has gone about it.
Re: Azure’s blade, I also believe she later tells the spren on the ship in Shadesmar that it is a “shardblade without a spren”. So, if a shard blade is something made of investiture, then it is a shardbalde if it has been awakened with breath. But, it is not the “higher” investiture of a spren, which is a splinter? of divinity. The exact breakdowns of investiture levels are still fuzzy for me sometimes.
I agree with Jory from the beta read, I had the same thought when I read this chapter that this story from Beard was true and that is what happened to Dalinar’s knife!
Interesting thoughts/discussion of the role of religion and faith in Stormlight. It is yet another topic that I think Sanderson handles well and provides many perspectives so people can think about it.
@2 Austin
I agree.
@5 LazerWulf
I also agree.
@5 LazerWulfScabbard.
A Scabbard is a rigid container for a bladed and edged implement. It is often, though not necessarily, of multi-layer construction. An inner and outer layer. The outer layer protecting the implement from outside influences and the inner layer protecting the implement form the outer layer (both as an insulator and as providing a difference in hardness from the outer material). The inner layer also usually has a dual purpose of creating gas/fluid tight environment for the implement. Securing of the implement in the scabbard is usually based on gravity fed containment (relying primarily on an ideal range of orientation to keep the implement in the container). A Scabbard may have a secondary securing piece intended to prevent unintentional removal when the whole is outside the range of ideal orientation.
Sheath.
A sheath is flexible or semi-rigid container for a bladed and edged implement. It is often, though not necessarily, of single layer construction. Wherein the inside of the main body material is of a different treatment then the outside. Sheaths often allow gas/fluid to pass through them to some degree. Either because of the nature of the material used, by design of the container, or both. Securing of the implement in the Sheath is usually based on a friction fit (either points of close contact with the implement or full contact). A Sheath might not (but often does) have a secondary securing piece intended to prevent unintentional removal when the whole is outside the range of ideal orientation.
With regards to the sword and carrying it on the right side – that’s how Roman legionnairs carried theirs, for what it’s worth. So probably not mixed up : )
Ah. This chapter.
Once upon a time within the deepest corners of the fandom, a bored fan wrote a quick, not particularly well written, snippet featuring what it meant to be fashion obsessed for teenage Adolin. The snippet had teenage Adolin proudly and over-confidently stroll around in a bright yellow suit (it is the latest fashion do!) only to be laughed at by Dalinar and Renarin for how ridiculous it looked. If I recall properly, the snippet ended years later with Dalinar telling Adolin that while he agrees to allow him to wear whatever he wants for his own wedding, bright yellow was forbidden. Forever.
You can all guess what my surprise upon reading Adolin wearing a bright yellow suit and being laughed at for how ridiculous it looks within the actual book….
Déjà vu.
Still, it was funny.
@9: Thanks. That was very informative.
@10: I forgot I was also going to comment on that. Assuming that the side sword is shorter than the arm length, it should be entirely possible to draw the sword from the same side you are wearing it.
Frankly, we don’t know how the Wall Guard soldiers saw the darkeyes – the question, somehow, never came up. However, I do find it significant that they were _all_ lighteyes. This couldn’t have happened by accident. So, it is actually fairly likely that they _did_ look down on the darkeyes. It is a particularly interesting contrast to the Palace Guard, which, as we saw in WoK and will see in the unpcoming chapters, was mixed. As was the Cobalt Guard. Both the more prestigious and lucrative postings, one would think, but then, they likely evolved from Dalinar’s elites and he had been unusually meritocratic even if his younger, darker days. Whereas the Wall Guard appears to have been grandfathered from whatever Kholinar had before the bros from the collateral branch usurped the previous rulers.
I also find that despite the fact that the “world” of low-dahner lighteyes was mentioned, the Wall Guard chapters didn’t give us any real feeling of what it was like. For instance – shouldn’t Kaladin’s new pals have had families in the city? If they were a kind of hereditary military caste, shouldn’t they have had ties to the people on the Shattered Plains? Yet, they all seemed like single and rootless men, with no other loyalties and worries than holding the city walls. IMHO, that’s a big missed opportunity, worldbuilding and characterization-wise. Because you’d think that something like the Wall Guard would have been perfect for the lighteyed soldiers who, after a decade or so of following the drum, would have wanted to settle down and start a family. And yes, they seemed to be trained and experienced, but none of them appeared to be a veteran of Dalinar’s army back from his border wars with the Herdazians, the Reshi and the Vedens.
Concerning the field surgeons – I thought that the problem in Amaram’s army was that the surgeon’s assisstants wouldn’t _fetch_ the dark-eyed soldiers from the battlefield without bribes, but surgeons did treat them if their comrades brought them around after the battles? Which was too late for many, granted. On the Shattered Plains we have seen surgeons working on the wounded soldiers after the battles even in Sadeas’s army, leave alone in the Kholin one – though, granted, the soldiers were a somewhat more scarce resource there.
The word “euthanized” sticks out like a sore thumb to me for some reason.
The cult guys in “stark violet” seem to be preaching the Testament of Odium, right enough. The color of their clothing is reminiscent of Voidlight.
“Is it Awakened, like Nightblood only different?”
Yes. By this point, if we collate the Warbreaker Annotations re: what would have happened if they didn’t manage to prevent the war, the relevant stuff in Oathbringer and the recent WoBs, a new and even more tragic picture of Vasher’s murder of his wife emerges. Namely, that it was unnecessary:
He was afraid that Shashara would have shared the technology of Nightblood’s creation? According to the Warbreaker Annotations she had already done so, with Yesteel, before her husband murdered her.
Azure/Vivenna’s sword in OB seems to be the product of this technology, and it is not a patch on Nightblood and not the kind of weapon, proliferation of which needs to be stopped at all costs. Vivenna has no compunction about spreading this technology further.
And recent WoBs have been rather explicit that Nightblood was the result of a very unique turn of events which resulted in the sword containing a bit of Ruin, and would be pretty much impossible to replicate.
Alice included the following quote:” They talked like that a lot. Holding the city wall was their job, and if they looked too far afield—tried too hard to police the city or bring down the cult—they’d lose their focus. The city had to stand. Even if it burned inside, it had to stand.”
I grew up in the Boston area and this reminds me of a story I heard about a snowplow driver who was working during the Blizzard of ’78. This driver kept a stretch of Route 1 clear. He went up and down. Yet nobody could access it since the streets leading to get onto Route 1 were completely snow covered.
I guess that sometimes you can only worry about what is assigned to you. Even if in the bigger picture, it is meaningless. The entire city was on the verge of rioting and worse. Yet, the Wall Guard just patrolled the city Wall itself and the areas surrounding it. But at least in their small area of responsibility (relative to patrolling all aspects of the entire city), they were able to achieve a level of control/security. Even if it proved to be a false level of security when the Fused launched their full-on offensive.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@12 – But still very awkward to draw it from the same side. Unless it was no bigger than a knife.
@15 maybe everyone in the wall guard is left handed? Actually though, I agree that it seems like a mistake.
@15: A Gladius’ blade was a little over 2 feet long. The Romans fought in close Phalanx formations, so drawing it across the body, there was a chance you could hit the soldier next to you. On the same side, I would imagine that you would just draw it straight back (not up), and then your arm would be in position to just thrust straight forward and stab someone.
see:
https://historum.com/threads/why-roman-soldiers-wore-their-swords-on-the-right.13041/
About the {G/g}od debate. Even in RL there is no consensus about god or gods or nothing. The Cosmere is not alone in this.
I suspect that every social level in society (RL and fantasy) looks down on the ones below and suspects the ones between them and the top are losers that really don’t belong there. Even barring physical differences people make class distinctions using speech and clothing to place you in your “proper” position.
@18 – That link only discusses the reason why it was on the right, now how they drew it. I watched some rather awkward sword videos on Youtube, and one guy demonstrated drawing from the right. You basically have to rotate your right hand to where your palm is facing away and be very careful drawing it lol. I’m not sure what you meant by “straight back” though.
I’ve always really appreciated Brandon’s take on religion, and the variety of religious characters he has. I feel like the characters’ religions actually inform their choices and views in a realistic way, but without reducing characters to either fanatics or hypocrites, etc.
Funny thing is though, despite being religious, Jasnah is the character that resonates most with me ;)
Regarding the Cosmere – we also don’t even know if Adonalsium was a God in the sense many people would view it, at least in the Western world (as in, creator of the universe, all powerful/knowing/good).
@21 Lisamarie
Little interesting tidbit. Brandon has commented that Jasnah is the most like himself, which is ironic because (like you) he considers himself a theist while she is an atheist.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Which character in The Stormlight Archive do you most relate to?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
…This is a good question, but it’s a hard question. Because all of my characters are partially me, and partially not me. Every character… So, in some ways, Jasnah is the most “me” you’re gonna get in one of these books, because you’ve got the very analytical, somewhat ambitious, gregarious person who ignores what everyone tells them is the smart thing to do and does their own thing, and then proves everyone wrong. On the other hand, a fundamental pillar of Jasnah is her atheism, where I am a theist. And so it’s like, every character, I can probably go on like that about. Every character’s got a chunk of me and a chunk that’s deliberately not me.
@20: True, I am making some assumptions on how they might draw it. I don’t have anything to actually practice with, so I was just using my imagination. In my mind, the scabbard is on the hip, but only affixed in one point. So as you reach down and grab it as you would a gun, palm inward, you draw your hand backwards. The scabbard pivots so that the tip of the sword points forward, allowing you to draw the sword.
I hadn’t looked up anything, but I’ll admit the palm-outward draw makes a bit more sense (or perhaps a palm-inward reverse grip, so that when you draw the sword it points down your forearm, like a knife-fighters grip, or Ahsoka Tano’s lightsaber grip). It is a bit awkward, but I would imagine it would become less so as you practiced it, and the practicality would override any discomfort you may feel.
Later in that same thread they ponder why they eventually switched to wearing it on the left, and someone suggested that the development of better armor that allowed more range of motion allowed someone to more easily draw the sword from across their body.
@21: It is not odd at all… I am not a religious person and yet Jasnah is one of the characters I relate the less to… in part because of her penchant towards… religion. I know this sounds odd, but I found her character major themes are very much tied to religion. Her beliefs or in her case her lack of beliefs, due to an absence of substantial proof, defines her character arc which makes her a character I read as “very religiously involved”. And that doesn’t resonate with me. As a non-religious person, it isn’t just I do not believe in religion, it is more I seldom think about it. For me, it isn’t an important topic of discussion, it doesn’t matter, it is not relevant, whereas Jasnah’s character, even if she defines herself as an atheist, does believe religion is mightily important and spends a lot of think pondering about it.
As such, I am not surprised religiously inclined readers do relate to Jasnah for her constant questioning and reflection on the meaning of religion. When it comes to Brandon’s works, I have always found each of his series had characters asking those questions about religion, wondering, needing to know. With Jasnah, he wrote one of those characters, but one who came to the conclusion there is no God or none which has proven its existence. As a reader, those never are the characters I enjoy the most, in parts, because those aren’t topics nor themes I have a strong affinity for.
Alice, Thank you for the yeoman effort this week.
Do we even know how long Re-Shephir was trapped? Could she/it have been trapped 10/50/200 years before the crystal was recorded?
I thought he just summoned/dismissed here at night, sort of like a booster shot to keep his eye brightness at a consistent level.
I haven’t been a soldier or policeman, but it seems to me that the types of leadership required for each role are fairly different in almost all circumstances (the obvious similar situation being a firefight/combat). So, it doesn’t surprise me that Kaladin react quicker to a battle than Noro, who would act quicker or differently if faced by a riot or while guarding a street/location.
re: Gods
I suppose the question on whether there is a God in the Cosmere depends on your definition of the term. For instance, Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial together, as well as the people who populated that world (at least initially). In most definitions, that would make them gods, at least on that world. To others, though, they were “merely” Shards..
@24 – that actually makes perfect sense. As somebody who likes to think about God/religion and its meaning, I can relate to Jasnah more than perhaps an ‘indifferent’ type of athiest would.
I also feel slightly gratified at Brandon’s own preference in @22. Thanks, Scath ;)
I like seeing Kaladin have his thinking challenged in this chapter. It helps us to see where he’s grown a lot (thanks to friends like Adolin and Shallan) and where he still hasn’t (some things of his dark eye upbringing that he doesn’t notice, re: field surgery options).
So Adolin in a yellow suit (with sequins? Really?) is something I really would love a fan art of. It would be so… special. Since we almost always have seen him in Kholin Blue so far.
I have more thoughts. But I can’t find them anymore, it’s been a long day. Thanks for all the work you put in Alice!
Kaladin is suffering from culture shock, which is always interesting when it’s being experienced by a person who thought he knew the culture that’s shocking him.
Maybe Jasnah would be able to be ambivalent about religion if she were not the princess of Alethkar and thus is forced to defend her lack of beliefs from all comers and defend her reputation from those who would try to put words in her mouth so to speak.
So far in the series we’ve seen two types of low-nahn lighteyes, the Wall Guard that looks askance at the so-called midders, and the ones like the guy who used to torment Gaz back in WoK, Lamaril or some such, that were nasty to darkeyes because they felt the gap between them wasn’t wide enough for comfort. There’s something about this that tickles my analysis but I cannot place it right now.
@25 RogerPavelle
To my knowledge we do not yet know how long Re-shephir was trapped. So it could have been for any length of time.
Good point on summoning Syl.
@26 Lisamarie
Glad to help :)
@29 EvilMonkey
I agree on all points. I also find it interesting that every single instance where Jasnah discusses religion, is because another character challenges her on it. Shallan even says twice that Jasnah largely does not talk about her own beliefs. Kabsal accused Jasnah of being ashamed of her beliefs if she doesn’t bring them up, to which Shallan then defended Jasnah. And I would know, I have poured over every single quote regarding Jasnah across all three books. Taravangian, Shallan, Kabsal, Amaram, Dalinar, and Ruthar all bring it up to her. She merely responds defending her own beliefs.
@27: I would die to see a rendition of Adolin wearing those ridiculous outfit especially if they are made by my favorite artists. I swear, I am utterly convinced Brandon purposefully sat down and thought on what would be the most ridiculous suits he could put Adolin in. It is not pure happenstance he put the poor man within both a blue powdered and a yellow suits…. I mean, a yellow suit! Big bird anyone?
@29: Brandon Sanderson chose to have his atheist character be a princess who’d need to defend her views on religion on a regular basis: this was a deliberate choice and it does allow her character to be religiously themed. It may be Jasnah wouldn’t discuss religion so often if others never challenged her, but fact remains the author chose to have her character specifically be within situations where she’ll need to explain them.
As such, on pure narrative purposes, Jasnah remains one of the character by whom religious beliefs are being explored, no matter what her thoughts on the matter may be. Readers who enjoy discussions on beliefs and religion are likely to enjoy those passages. On the reverse, readers not being particularly interested within such topics may end up thinking Jasnah, despite her lack of beliefs, is one of the vessels by which religious themes are being the most explored. Hence, the lack of belief doesn’t mean her narrative is void of religion. It may be this was the compromise Brandon made for having an atheist character: at least have one who discusses those issues as opposed to one who would just not care at all and shrug it off. It can see why a deeply religious individual would write it this way, but it remains a theme which doesn’t resonate within me very strongly
AndrewHB @14:
I still find it really odd that even during the quiet stretches the Wall Guard soldiers don’t speak about their families and friends, that they are not worried about their loved ones despite there being no provisions in place for feeding or protecting their dependants. Also, in the future chapter Kaladin will be the only one to spend his down time visiting the city (and liasing with other members of the team), while his new mates will return straight back to the Wall. And the way they speak about “the good people of the city” as if most of them aren’t supposed to be part of said people and deeply connected to them?!
IMHO this whole “their own world” of low-level light-eyes which they are supposed to belong to is very much “tell, don’t show” thing. Indeed, what is shown is pretty much the opposite, that they are as rootless as the bridgemen became on the Shattered Plains.
Evil Monkey @29:
I dunno, I would say that Lamaril had a higher position than the soldiers of the Wall Guard. He was, after all, an officer. And we don’t know how the Wall Guards would have treated the darkeyes if they had to routinely work with them, which they don’t. I’d have really liked to get a closer look at how mixed units like the archers used to work – since there are going to be imminent changes during the year between books 3 and 4, one assumes.
I also think that Beard is wrong and that Cultivation _is_ watching. Does she do “the last walk” thing, I wonder? Because I fully expect her to do it with Taravangian once he fulfills his part in her plan and dies…
I am also not sure how not being nice and having a human part should disqualify the Shards from being gods comparable to those of RL religions? I mean, we can find deities behaving in volatile and unpleasant manner practically in any RL scripture… And it isn’t like the Shards don’t occasionally listen and intervene. Not to mention that some of them _did_ create a world and it’s people. And Adonalsium must have created almost everything in the Cosmere to begin with, so how doesn’t he qualify as a single creator God? Is it just the question of the afterlife? But then, Adonalsium might have had more insight and control there than the Shards, though, of course, we aren’t going to learn for certain.
@32 Isilel
I think that depends on your perspective and to whom you speak. I do know at least for Jasnah, the God Beyond is disqualified under her comments to Shallan about seeking approval from an unknowable and unseeable deity is fruitless. I would also say all the shards and adonalsium would be disqualified because another instance she discusses with Shallan about the Almighty, Jasnah comments on how she is not arguing on whether or not the Almighty exists. What she is however saying is a being such as the Almighty is not worthy of worship for her. Given that fundamentally all the shards work within the same rules, and fundamentals, then such logic would apply to all of them. Further since Adonalsium also functions under all the same rules and fundamentals as the shards that made him up (I say him because Brandon has confirmed Adonalsium originally had a vessel, the vessel was a him, and the vessel is dead) then by extension Adonalsium is also not worthy of worship to her.
Conversely Sazed would have a very different response. I do not think it would be spoilers to say that for Sazed, so long as the religion provides some benefit (hope, emotional/mental healing, community), then it does not matter what form the deity takes, or even if there is a deity at all. All that matters is how the religion causes the person worshiping it to feel. So Sazed would not care whether the shards were considered gods or not, so long as the religious beliefs that cropped up around them provided what I mentioned above.
Dalinar would have something entirely different to say. He would not see the shards as gods. He seeks something in his words “greater”. Now what he would term greater? That is entirely individualistic to him. What he experienced and felt with that light is enough for him to know in his heart, that whatever is the source of that light is what god is to him.
So I think it is rather beautiful that so many people can have so many different experiences with the divine, and all be valid and embraced.
Re. wearing a sword on the right: Firstly, the Romans continued to wear swords on the right even after switching to the Spatha, at least in some contexts. I think it persisted longer for cavalry than for infantry. Secondly, IIRC there is a sidearm draw referred to as a cavalry draw for pistols that involves wearing the gun butt forward on your dominant side. You twist your wrist when you grasp it and the act of drawing the weapon naturally untwists the wrist and pulls the weapon into line. I remember reading something about the speed of various draws and the strange and exotic cavalry draw was marginally faster than the alternatives. I suspect that even with a longer blade one could manage a sword draw using similar mechanics, without failing the weapon around or poking somebody next to you and with the natural movements of your wrist bringing the blade in line with the enemy almost automatically. Thirdly, wearing a weapon on the dominant side would normally be accomplished by means of a baldric rather than a sword belt, IIRC, which would change the mechanics of the draw due to the different way in which the weapon hung at rest.
Frankly, for the Wall Guard specifically, I’m surprised that they’re not focused on missiles, polearms, and axes. Darts, javelins, bows, and crossbows (or whichever subsets of that list are present in Roshar) should be ideal for fighting from atop a wall (with the added bonus of being a threat to flying hostiles). Polearms should allow for hand-to-hand combat from atop the wall against hostiles trying to scale it via rope or ladder, and would prove beneficial for containing breaches (either beach-head sections of wall that the enemy has surmounted, or physical breaches where a section of wall is collapsed or removed). Axes would be ideal for attacking enemies that are about to crest the wall, for chopping through ladders and ropes used for the same, and for battering through the natural armor of the specific enemy that they will be facing (axes being far better at that role than most sword patterns would be). It seems most likely to me that two factors determined their arms, neither of which were relevant to being effective against a Parshendi assault: policing functions would lead to carrying the truncheons (only a viable battlefield weapon when your objective is to take prisoners and your enemy is untrained and unequipped), while the emulation of shardbearers would lead to light-eyed soldiers favoring swords over other, more effective options (social and aesthetic reasons are powerful ones and have often led to less optimal choices).
I don’t think it does. I just think he isn’t used to relying on the army’s surgeons, and also this whole book (and Kaladin’s whole arc) is about his Tragic Flaw: he’s too heroic. Specifically, he cannot accept that any bad thing can ever happen to anyone he knows–he should be able to prevent them all. Brandon, I presume consciously, made a character whose flaw is heroism.
He knows that Azure is a Shardbearer by this time because he was told IIRC.
You’re using a very specific and culture-bound definition of “real god” there which would exclude, say, Loki or Hermes or Varuna or Crow.
@LazerWulf:
You know who else considers Nightblood a Shardblade? The Herald Nale. Oh, and one other person, whose opinion might matter: Brandon Sanderson. Nightblood and his sister were made in imitation of Rosharan Shardblades, which category includes Radiant blades and Herald blades.
@34 I agree, there are ways around the sword draw that make it work. Besides, for Roman soldiers, there wasn’t a need for a quick draw. That is not what they needed in their attack formation. The troop would be prepared as they formed up and got ready to attack.Then, when the formation is broken they would have already had the swords drawn. And the whole sword vs. more useful weapons on the wall seems a valid point. It must have been a “culture” preference over a practical one.
I thought the Wall Guard mostly used pikes, but had swords and truncheons when deployed for “civil” duty on the city streets, where very long spears would be impractical?
I had the same thought as you, Carl. I guess we’ll see when we get to the fight on the wall later.
Guys, Brandon’s RoW’s third update!!!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/bdzor2/stormlight_book_four_update_3/
I dunno if anyone wants to hazard a guess as to who is part of the primary (4 characters) the secondary (3 characters) and the tertiary (2 characters)?
tertiary character: Azure and Zahel
I don’t think that Azure and Zahel will play a major part. Brandon is talking about the three arcs of the book and compares it to the three arch in TWoK (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar). So every arc would need some main players. Being too much time in the heads of Zahel and Azure would probably need some Warbreaker insights on the readers side. I am not sure whether book 4 will already call for such Cosmere awareness.
I have no idea who the characters may be. And I am even more curious which three locations we will see. Urithiru for sure (probably arc 1). As to the others…? Azir? Thaylen City? The Shattered Plains? Azir? We will probably have to wait for Shinovar till book 5. I would love to see Aimia…
I agree with @41 bird. I am pretty sure the 9 characters will be taken out of our regular casts of characters who are: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin, Venli, Szeth, Jasnah and Navani. Those were the characters having been in the planning so far: I honestly do not see Brandon tossing away half his major cast of characters to focus half the book on new ones. He also said the arcs were divided by location. Hence, since Urithiru is where most of our characters currently are, I thought it was reasonable to expect the first arc to focus on them (that group could also travel together to another location at some point, we never know). I never saw Venli as being the primary arc in the same manner as Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar were in their respective book. I would thus put the Parshendi arc within the second one. The third arc is a bit more nebulous.
So, my thoughts:
1) (Urithiru/Shadesmar/maybe Jah Keved) Shallan, Adolin, Jasnah. For the fourth, it could be Szeth, Dalinar or Navani. Probably Navani because she steadily has had her viewpoints and I can’t see her anywhere else.
2) (Conquered Alethkar) Venli, Kaladin and for the third, it could be Moash. Or someone new.
3) (Shinovar/wherever Ishar is/new location?) This one is hard… but I am going to go with Dalinar and Szeth. Both will not have a big book and both are scheduled to play a large role within the last book. Hence, the third arc could be the setup for book 5.
Of course, I could totally, irrevocably wrong here. What I feel the strongest about is the pairing of Shallan/Adolin and Venli/Kaladin within their respective arcs unless someone has good arguments why it should happen differently.
I do not foresee characters such as Renarin, Lift, Taravangian and Rysn getting more page time than they previously had. I suspect the interlude novella will feature either Ash or Taln.
Thoughts anyone? This is fun! I have to say I am VERY excited over RoW’s planning so far, a sharp difference from how I felt after seeing the OB one.
I see Kaladin, Shallan, Venli, and Rlain being the first arc in voidbringer controlled lands. Kaladin because of the excerpt posted earlier. Shallan to keep them hidden/disguised. Rlain to blend in and try to turn parshendi. Venli because by accident Rlain will be how they make contact with her and she joins team Kholin. Or Moash instead of Rlain to be a counter point to Kaladin and cause conflict. I see the secondary being Dalinar, Jasnah, and Adolin back at Urithiru. Dalinar needs to be in the tower to lead the radiants and possibly get the tower working with help from Navani to delve into the Sibling. Jasnah to rule as Queen of Alethkar and Adolin at her side to rule as Highprince of the Kholin princedom. The last I feel like it is going to be Shinovar with Szeth having gained approval from Dalinar to pursue the shamanate, but I cannot for the life of me figure out who would accompany him. Actually as I type this, Lift possibly?
So TLDR
First Arc: Kaladin, Shallan, Rlain, Venli or Kaladin, Shallan, Moash, Venli
Second Arc: Dalinar, Jasnah, Adolin
Third Arc: Szeth, Lift
The excerpt shows Kaladin going away from the main cast and Shallan needs to have her arc with the Ghostbloods/Sha-Janah/her family to happen. I do not see Brandon delaying it for one more book: it’s been dragging for a long time already. I also do not see him breaking apart the Shallan/Adolin newly married couple for the book, especially since they have yet to talk about many things, especially since this was a strongly criticized part of OB. Brandon will try to make it right. Oh and he promised we would get Adolin’s viewpoints on his relationship with Shallan: so these two are likely staying together.
Preview chapter imply Kaladin is alone and not disguised. He was out to get his family, doubtful the Highlady Kholin will accompany him. Shallan providing disguise in an infiltration mission has also been done in OB. I expect her arc to differ in RoW.
Shallan also now has an important function to fulfil (Highlady) and she also is Jasnah’s ward. So I doubt Brandon is breaking apart the Shallan, Jasnah, Adolin trio: all three are now the leaders of Alethkar. They have ties all together: Shallan and Adolin are married, Adolin is Jasnah’s cousin and he refused the throne, Jasnah is Shallan’s teacher. Shallan needs to learn how to soulcast. And they need to go back to Shadesmar because, Maya! We are supposed to see more of her. Adolin can’t go on his own, so he’s got to be paired with Shallan/Jasnah. They could be the second arc, but I really do not see which four known characters Venli could currently be paired with other than Kaladin and Moash.
Dalinar has a small role in this book, I thus think it is unlikely be in the leading position for any arc within the book. That’s why I am putting him as fourth character in the first arc or one of the tertiary arc characters.
I agree the third arc is likely to be Szeth going away on his mission. Lift is a contender to go with him though I like the pairing of him with Dalinar.
Here is another one:
1) (Urithiru/Shadesmar) Shallan, Adolin, Jasnah, Dalinar/Navani/Renarin (let’s keep Dalinar here for the family drama!)
2) (Conquered Alethkar/Horneater Peaks) Venli, Kaladin, Lirin
3) (Shinovar/travelling) Szeth, Lift
OR, Szeth stays and:
1) (Urithiru/Shadesmar) Shallan, Adolin/Renarin, Jasnah, Szeth (training Radiants!) (also Lift fits in there)
2) (Conquered Alethkar/Horneater Peaks) Venli, Kaladin, Lirin or Moash
3) (around the world politics) Dalinar, Navani (after his sons react badly to his book, Dalinar takes a foreign mission with Navani!)
@44 Gepeto
With all due respect, my post was not in reply to you.
I will white out about further Kaladin discussion regarding the spoilered scene below
Kaladin revealed himself to Lirin, but that does not mean he is always without disguise. How else could Lirin know it was Kaladin?
Can easily get Adolin’s perspective without Shallan there.
Shallan was still Jasnah’s ward when she went to Kholinar. Jasnah realized Shallan grows when there is a more hands off approach, which is why she approved Shallan going to Kholinar. So the same could stand with infiltrating voidbringer lands. The Ghostbloods want Shallan to bring Sja-anat into the fold. She cannot exactly do that in Urithiru. She will need to be in voidbringer lands to make further contact.
To me Dalinar, Adolin and Jasnah make sense because they need to rule their respective responsibilities. Kaladin and Shallan make sense because they are radiants and are needed in the field (Kaladin for mobility, Shallan for espionage)
This post is not to get into an argument with you over who has to be the characters and in what order. It is further explaining my thoughts that are perfectly valid and I am entitled to. Just like you can have your own theories and thoughts on who you think is where.
All: let’s remember that this is an open, public discussion–anyone can answer or address anyone else, but it’s also important not to monopolize the conversation or insist on one’s own opinions or interpretations over those of anyone else. We appreciate the politeness with which disagreements generally play out in these comment threads, and for that civility to continue, we ask that you not make disagreements personal, or take other interpretations personally. In short, please don’t make disagreements about you, and keep the focus on the chapters under discussion–thanks.
I find this chapter also interesting regarding religious commentary regarding the cult. The Cult of the Moments seems to be linked up with the Unmade Heart of the Revel. In a lot of ways it is a perversion of what I mentioned regarding how Sazed would view religion. Instead of providing hope, and support, the cult provides fear and exclusion. It is kinda creepy how easily it can go either way when people are facing an uncertain future. Makes me wonder what happened to other ardents in the city. I cannot recall if it was mentioned. Were they potentially hunted down by the cult?
@Scàth Everybody here is entitled to express their own opinions. And I can only speak for myself and not for Gepeto, but I don’t think Gepeto’s answer was meant to undermine your thoughts on the topic, but to take them and spin their own thoughts further. I really appreciate the diverse arguments brought up here in this community and I especially value your insights and your incredible ability to dig up WoBs ;-) But let the arguing continue (in a friendly and respectful way) in order to come up with many different ideas (though Brandon might surprise us anyways ).
I really like the idea (that both of you brought up) that one arc takes place in Parshendi occupied locations. I am not sure whether Brandon’s wording allows for characters being in one arc, but different locations. At least for arc 1 he explicitly says that four characters are in one place all together. Unless Moash decides to bring down Roshone, I don’t think he will be in Kaladin’s home town. I also don’t think Shallan has to stay in Urithiru to be Highlady Kholin, though I am not sure whether she has to be with Kal. So she might fit in the third arc (the location that is the hardest to define for me – I still think Shinovar is too early).
Well… I don’t know. But I love the speculations and I am so hyped for the book. Already :D
Edit: More thoughts on the Cult of Moments is also appreciated. I think we discussed it already in an earlier chapter and we – unfortunately – still haven’t much more information on it.
@50 bird
I appreciate your thoughts and would respond, but as moderation was called for involvement I do not think it would benefit the discussion to continue on the topic. If you really want to continue to discuss this, I have changed my preferences again to allow messaging. Feel free to shoot me a message. Otherwise I posted my thoughts already in what I feel is a perfectly fine and respectful manner. Thank you.
Hmmmm, well we know the ardent that started the rebellion was killed, and there is one that joined the Cult of the Moments. Makes me wonder if there were more.
@51 Yeah. I saw that that comments were deleted and that there was a note by the moderators only after I posted my comment (it takes me too long to type on my phone and I didn’t check for updates^^). I agree. Let’s drop the discussion and go back to the current chapter. I’ll check whether there is a discussion on the SA4 update over on the 17thshard and might jump in there.
If I were an ardent in Kholinar at the time of the chapter, I would rather stay low than join the Cult or try to oppose it on my own. The ardent from the interlude (I don’t remember the name) was very courageous and honorable. But her acts weren’t helpful at all. Maybe I would try to help in a smaller way. Try to get access to food and share it quietly or something like that. We see what happens if you act in a very noticeable way..
@52 bird
No problemo. There is one on the 17th shard, as well as Tor has done one focused on it primarily. I have linked both for you below:
https://www.tor.com/2019/04/17/brandon-sandersons-stormlight-archive-book-four-shaping-up-to-resemble-the-way-of-kings/#comment-800259
https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/84876-main-characters-of-rhythm-of-war/
Good points. The presence of the fused and cult of the moments does make holding service to practice vorin faith rather difficult. Perhaps some ardents tried what you suggested with the food, but since they are technically owned by lighteyes, the lighteyes left prevented them to hold their monopoly on food?
@50: Thanks. Those situations are very hard to deal with without destroying the mood of the whole thread which is why I asked moderation to make a statement. I can only hope the situation is now well understood by all. And you are right, I meant no disrespect, but to further the argumentation.
Putting it behind me, I do not think Highlady Kholin has to absolutely stay in Urithiru, but I do think she will stay close to Adolin. So far, Urithiru seems like the most likely location where they would evolve, but I wouldn’t bar them going to war in Jah Keved. I however do not think Shallan and Adolin will be evolving within separate arcs.
All: thanks for moving on; no further comments on the matter needed.
Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan and Jasnah try to reconquer Alethkar.
Dalinar, Navani, and maybe Szeth stay in Urithiru.
Venli and Moash show the enemy perspective.
There must have been other ardents at the place where Azure found the soulcaster, but most probably were in the palace.
I just discovered that I hadn’t made ANY comments in this discussion, and also that I really wish I’d had time to read the discussion here before I wrote tomorrow’s post. Oh well… y’all can bring things up again? :D
I have no current speculation on the three arcs for SA4, but I sure did enjoy reading the ideas here! Some very good points made by several. The only two things I can say with some confidence is that 1) Szeth won’t be going after the Shamanate very seriously yet – that pretty much has to be SA5 and 2) Venli almost HAS to be the focus of either the primary or secondary arc. I hope that Rlain is with her. Beyond that, I’ll have to think about it with both hands for a while!
Probably too late for tomorrow’s posts, but may I suggest that the articles warn about spoilers for both the Stormlight Archive and Warbreaker? After all, three characters from Warbreaker are significant already in the SA, and it was always intended as a Stormlight Archive prequel.
Carl, we normally try to include a spoiler warning for any other books we mention in the article. Sometimes it gets missed, but we do try. It’s in that paragraph near the beginning that says:
(Red added for visibility here, though you’ll notice that it’s all in black up at the top.) For tomorrow’s reread, the only – very minor – Cosmere spoiler is a one-off mention of Hoid.
WRT to the surgeon question: Yes, there were surgical teams back in Amaram’s army, and yes, they always treated the lighteyes first. One of Kaladin’s flashbacks mentions him paying bribes to the surgeons so that his squad was always the first to get treated after any lighteyed wounded.